Is Napster Good or Bad for the Music Industry?

May 24, 2000
CNN TalkBack Live

**Please note, all of Butch comments will be in bold

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't even play my CDs anymore.

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PRESS: And that's driving the music industry crazy.

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ART ALEXAKIS, GUITARIST/VOCALIST: They're going to have to pay royalties. I mean, you can't -- it's theft. You can't give away someone's ideas or somebody's product.

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BECK, MUSICIAN: I think some artists are going to be destroyed by it.

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PRESS: Want music. It begins right here at Napster.com, a virtual music source that's become a virtual swap meet. Just download the program, type in an artist or title, then wait while a search engine checks out Napster files on other hard drives. Once located, your request is delivered to your computer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I don't have to buy like a whole CD to just listen like three or four songs.

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PRESS: Users call it sharing. Heavy metal band Metallica calls it stealing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LARS ULRICH, METALLICA: When we served them with a lawsuit, they basically held up their hands and smiled innocently and said, well, we're not doing anything illegal, we're just providing a service.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Is it swapping? Is it stealing? How much of a threat is Napster to the recording industry?

Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Bill Press, here today for Bobbie Battista.

While Napster calls it music share, the music industry calls it piracy, and some artists, including Dr. Dre and Metallica, want their music blocked from Napster users. Napster says it's not responsible for how the site is used. According to its user agreement -- here's what they say -- quote -- "It respects copyright law and expects users to do the same. Unauthorized copying, distribution, modification, public display or public performance of copyrighted works is an infringement of the copyright holder's rights. You should be aware that some MP3 files may have been created or distributed without copyright owner authorization. As a condition to your account with Napster, you agree that you will not use Napster service to infringe on the intellectual property rights of others in any way."

Well, you know, that doesn't end it. The controversy over Napster is such a big deal that Congress held hearings on it today. Hip-hop artist Chuck D testified at that hearing. He's co-founder of Public Enemy. You can find him on location at his Web site, RapStation.com. He joins us today from Washington, D.C.

And also along with Chuck D we have Howard King, attorney for Metallica and Dr. Dre.

Mr. King, I want to start with you first, if I may. So I've got a computer at home. I hook up my computer. I download Napster. There's a song that I really like. I search Napster. I get the song. I download it and I play it. What's the big deal?

HOWARD KING, ATTORNEY FOR METALLICA AND DR. DRE: Well, there are millions of you out there and that's the big deal. I mean, the digital all transmission of a copyrighted song in that fashion without the consent of the owner is a copyright violation. If it's one, who cares? If it's 10 million, that's a big issue.

PRESS: Is it stealing?

KING: Absolutely.

PRESS: Why is it -- if it's free, how can it be stealing?

KING: Well, contrary to what a lot of people think, everything on the Internet is not necessarily free or shouldn't be free. Congress passed the Copyright Act to protect and encourage creative development by ensuring that people that created such things as songs get paid for them unless they want to give them away for free. PRESS: Now, you sued the 3,017 -- 317,000 fans who had downloaded Metallica music, correct?

KING: We have not sued one fan. We have sued Napster. We, at Napster's insistence, when they refused to take the Metallica and Dr. Dre songs off the directory, gave them the names of their users that were illegally downloading the songs, and then Napster turned that into a press event by trying to state that Metallica was forcing them to remove those users. All Metallica and Dr. Dre asked was that their copyrighted materials not be distributed without their consent.

PRESS: But here's what I don't understand -- and then we'll go to Chuck D to get his response -- these are fans who love Metallica's music and Dr. Dre's music. They're the fans that made them what they are today. They went out and bought their CDs, they went out and told their friends about their music, and now they're downloading their music because they love their music, and you're turning on your own fans. How can you do that?

KING: Well, first, there's no evidence that the people downloading are the people who have actually been fans and have bought the CDs...

PRESS: But they must like the music, right?

KING: ... and have supported the artist.

Well, when it's free, you know, download 10,000 songs. Who knows if they like it?

PRESS: But aren't you in fact turning against the people that made -- that made the band what it is today?

KING: Absolutely not. I think the fans of Metallica and the fans of Dr. Dre support what that they're doing and understand that they deserve to be compensated for the years and years and years of work they put into becoming as successful as they are.

PRESS: So Chuck D, Howard King is there. He's fighting for artists. Do you think, Chuck D, that Howard King is fighting for you today?

CHUCK D, RAPSTATION.COM: Well, first of all, I'd like to say that file sharing and downloadable distribution is new radio. It's the technology of the 21st century. And the same technology that allowed artists to actually shake fruit from a tree, you know, they have to adapt to the new way.

And I think the fans that have downloaded Metallica or Dr. Dre, they have also bought more Metallica and Dr. Dre product and will continue to do so. I just think that the industry is crying right about now because for the first time the technology is in the audience's hands or in the consumer's hands instead of being in their hands, which will determine who has the power over who.

And so it's really funny to see that the rebellious sorts in the industry, who are governed by the jargon of lawyers and accountants, trying to say that they're looking out for the artistry, but are really crying and screaming that the audience or the public or the consumer kind of like give them a break when they weren't given a break over the last 20 years.

PRESS: Do you feel that you're losing money or that you risk losing money because people are downloading for free instead of going out to a CD store?

CHUCK D: It's global -- hey, it's global expansion. I think there's a bigger audience out there than ever. And back to 1967, when FM radio came about, the companies were screaming. Now, who wouldn't their music on FM radio, or cassette players, when they came about in 1978 and 1979.

You know, people could tape it off the radio, but you know, at the same it only enhanced the business. So there's going to be more money than ever. But to actually -- to go after a small amount of fans who actually take one or two or three songs and trade them like baseball cards and say that they're the kind of culprit in this -- I think that's ridiculous.

PRESS: It's been -- the other side, of course, claims that people are stealing from you, taking your work and getting rich, stealing your work and getting rich from it. So do -- I mean, do you feel that you're a victim of some of these people who are going -- they have this site, they're going to put some advertising on it, they're going to make a lot of money but you're not going to get anything out of it?

CHUCK D: I think what you get is global exposure to a situation where you can enhance and embark upon yourself being globalized and taken advantage of being in front of a lot of people, and then your works will still be bought by them. I don't think there's any kind of quantitative method that says it goes against the artist's bottom line.

What it might end up going against is the big four corporations' bottom line who have dominated the marketplace. Now, they have to share the marketplace with millions of people, not only being the audience but now they're participants in the music business. And that causes problems for the Sonys, the BMGs, the Time Warners, the Universals, who claim that they're looking out for the artists when in truth they never have.

PRESS: Mr. King, what about that? And by the way, I encourage you, Mr. King, to respond to anything that Chuck D might have to say, and Chuck D, be sure to jump in any time you want and respond to Mr. King. You don't have to wait for my questions.

But Mr. King, he's saying in fact that as -- he's an artist, right? It doesn't bother him. He's going to get all this exposure. It's actually going to help him sell more CDs. And if that's true, why aren't you representing more artists? Why only Metallica and Dr. Dre? What about all these other hundreds and thousands of artists who don't seem to have a problem? KING: Well, let me stay two things. One is I respect Chuck D and more power to him. If he wants to distribute his music that way and he thinks that's good for him, terrific, it's a free country.

I don't know what the true impact is. Everybody is saying it helps sales or hurts sales. No one knows, although there's a report being released today by an Internet think thank that surveyed college towns, and notwithstanding the fact that the recording industry enjoyed great growth over the last year, in these college towns the sales have declined by as much 7 percent, and they attribute that 100 percent to Napster.

But let me get to the issue. This is not a pro- or anti-Internet policy on behalf of artists. I think most artists, including Metallica and Dr. Dre, embrace the Internet and see it as a terrific tool for distribution of music and for eliminating or reducing the cost and reducing the power of record companies. This is all fine. The question is, who is going to profit by distribution through the Internet? Is it going to be the investment Bankers who are funding Napster or the artists that actually create the inventory?

CHUCK D.: Basically who's profited over the last 20 years when people were forced to pay $17 for a CD for something that the company makes for as little as 89 cents, and then charging all the middlemen prices within, and the consumers been ripped off for the last 20 years. You can't ask the people to give the industry a break. And it really seems funny that the industry is crying to government to give them a break when nobody actually went to the industry an said, hey, give the consumers a break on this. This is a case of the chickens home to shoot.

(APPLAUSE)

KING: But wait a second, my clients are not the industry. Dr. Dre is not the industry. Metallica is not the industry. They're artists who have made a good living, a great living.

CHUCK D.: They're an exception to the rule, Howard. There's a million artists out there that been have been locked outside the doors of industry and they want -- they probably would love to get inside the industry. Now they've gotten inside the industry and now the industry is complaining, so this is all funny.

PRESS: Gentlemen, we're going to have to take a break. Hold it right there. We also have some audience members that want to jump in, got a hot discussion going here. By the way, we want you to know we Invited Napster representatives to join our discussion today. They declined to do so. But can you join in. We invite you to take part in our online viewer vote. And here's how you do it: Just go to CNN.com/TALKBACK. And today's question, is Napster sharing or stealing? More of that debate when we come back on TALKBACK LIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE everybody. Well, there are seven million registered users of Napster, 7,325,000 users online at any one time, so is this horse already out of the barn, and when these people are sharing, are they in fact stealing? That's our debate today.

We have a fax from Andy in Tennessee. Andy said The Grateful Dead had no qualms about folks recording their concerts and sharing tapes among the people. Any true artist never writes music for money.

Our guests again, joining us from Los Angeles, Howard King. He's an attorney representing Metallica and Dr. Dre. He's been suing Napster over this practice. Chuck D. testified in front of Congress today, and he joins us now from our studio. in Washington He basically says this is a whole new venue for artists.

Gentlemen, before we get back to you, some people in the audience want to jump in here. First Alan (ph) -- hi, Alan.

ALAN: Hi. Alan Johnston with OV (ph) Entertainment out of Las Vegas. I also have my compadre here Steve Buckley with me.

One of the things that I'm really interested in in this particular situation is the privacy issue. If Howard King was able to give 300,000 names of people who have downloaded on Napster, I'm now worried about how could he get that information on other people? Do they have access to our computers? What are you doing about that?

No. 2, what -- you've not done anything said anything about the cassette bootlegging, CD bootlegging, and we know that you can step outside of your door in Los Angeles or go in New York or the streets of any major city and pick Metallica or Dr. Dre for $5, and no money gets back to the company.

PRESS: How about that, Howard? You want to respond? Let's take the first issue of the where did you get these 317,000 names? Weren't you invading people's privacy when you gave the names to whomever -- to Napster?

KING: Well, I think the question is what is Napster doing? We got they will through the Napster service. What are people doing when they sign up with Napster? Now in all fairness, we didn't get people's names. We got their user names and their IP address. We only get them because Napster forced us to do it because they didn't think we could do it. They refused to take the Metallica songs off the system, and said if we would give the user names and IP address, they would eliminate, delete those users, so we took the challenge, we hired a service, and we did it.

PRESS: Well, that's Napster. Now my understanding is that there are other sites, newer sites where it's impossible to trace the source. So aren't you in fact Howard asking for the impossible? Meaning, people go to get a download and you'll never know who they are. You'll never know who they are. They could be in France, they could be in Belgium or anywhere in the world.

KING: Right. Well, you know, I can answer the question as well as answering the gentleman's question in the audience. Because they're stealing someplace that we can't stop, we're not going to therefore say that all stealing is OK.

Secondly, the technology works both ways. For every smart guy there is developing a new system, there's another smart guy developing a system to find out who that first guy is.

PRESS: Well, Chuck D., I want to ask you to respond to Allen's second question. I don't know maybe -- I don't whether you did or not, but there are a lot of artists who certainly complain, and still complain, that on street corners in LA, and New York and Washington you can buy bootleg CDs. What's the difference? If you complain about that, why shouldn't you be complaining about this?

CHUCK D: First of all, the artists pretty much like derivative of what they're being told by the labels that they are signed to. They very -- very few artists understand their contracts. I was signed to a major label which had worldwide distribution rights that also claimed the rights to distribute music throughout the universe. They couldn't get records in Africa, Asia, or South America, yet and still they controlled those rights, the copyrights and the master's. So they couldn't even follow up on what they had actually contracted me to.

So I knew at least in this realm of the Internet distribution that I know exactly what I'm dealing with from day one. And hey, look, first of all, the excitement of the fans is really -- that's precedent, because the business has always prided itself on triggering itself off the excitement of the fans.

I mean, this is the most excitement that the fans have had since rap, disco, and The Beatles, and all of a sudden they can't line themselves up with this distribution now because they don't control it. So, beyond, you know, a couple artists saying, this affects me, they should look into their contracts and go into joint ventures with these companies and then they could actually talk about what's being exploited on the street.

PRESS: Back to Allen here with just a quick rebuttal, Allen.

ALAN: Just a quick rebuttal. First of all, Mr. King, you say they're stealing. We don't say they're stealing. So the idea to come out and say that this is theft is a little ludicrous. The second thing is that...

KING: It is stealing. It's the law. I mean, it's a violation of the Copyright Act. No one at Napster even disputes that. That's why they put their self-serving policy on their service that says, don't violate the Copyright Act.

CHUCK D: Excuse me, Mr. King.

PRESS: Chuck D, go ahead, Chuck.

CHUCK D: Mr. King, it's new technology and the old paradigm from the last century only was good for that last century. The new century -- I look at Napster as being new radio and people are finding ways that now you are going to have a million artists in a million labels now all in the record game, and in the past, even three years ago, there was four companies, six companies, and the record game squeezing the little man out from getting in the record game.

Now there's going to be a million record companies out there. My man is out there, he's going to be in the record game and his bottom line is going to be different from Time Warner's bottom line. Who cares about Sony's bottom line?

KING: Well, Chuck, who -- Chuck, let me ask you this, who is going to pay the $600,000 to make the video for these million dollar -- million record companies?

CHUCK D: First of all, let me tell you...

KING: Who's going to pay the recording...

CHUCK D: Let me tell you...

KING: Well, wait a second.

PRESS: Just one at a time.

KING: The money is going to come from somewhere, Chuck.

CHUCK D: Let me tell you, Mr. King, the only reason that a video costs $600,000 is because the record companies are in cahoots with the radio stations who are in cahoots with MTV, or all these other stations, so therefore only the big corporations that play that game.

KING: That's wrong.

CHUCK D: Now you got little companies in the game and everybody is getting mad because it's even footing.

PRESS: All right, gentlemen, I hate to interrupt us, I'm sorry. We're just going to have to take a break. This is TALKBACK LIVE.

And I guess this is the new millennium where everybody has their own personalized radio. We will continue our debate, sharing or stealing, when we come back right here on TALKBACK LIVE. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back everybody. Welcome back to TALKBACK.

Our debate today is about sharing music on the Internet. Is it sharing or stealing? Is it capitalism versus freedom of information?

Before -- by the way, we are joined now by another artist right here in Atlanta, his name is Butch Walker. And, Butch Walker, the name of your group that you founded, again, is?

BUTCH WALKER, MUSICIAN: It's called The Marvelous 3.

PRESS: The Marvelous 3, a rock trio, correct?

WALKER: Good math.

PRESS: Good math, OK, good. One, two, three, I'm pretty good up to that.

Now, I want to get your comment, just hold off just a second, because right here I want everybody to see the technology we are talking about. This is a cord that you hook from your computer to this wonderful little gadget which is called a Diamond Rio, OK? You put your music down, first of all, down into your hard drive, then you connect this again from your hard drive to the Diamond Rio and this little Diamond Rio is like a CD Walkman. Here are the earphones, just put them in. Clip this thing to your belt and you can listen to -- I don't know -- you have 500 probably more thousand songs 500,000 in here.

That's what we're talking about. That's what this enables. And by the way, this clips to your belt. I just want you to know whenever you see Al Gore from now on and he has that little thing on his belt, you thought it was a Palm Pilot, no, folks, this guy is rapping out. That's what Al Gore is doing.

So, Butch Walker, what do you think about this? I mean, first of all, let's be honest. You love making music, right?

WALKER: Well, yes, it's my life. It's my living. I've been doing it since I was 8 years old and I have to...

PRESS: But you also -- let's be honest, you want to make money?

WALKER: Absolutely. Well, I mean, you know, the whole thing is, is you get into this for a couple of reasons. You get into it, obviously, when you're 8 years old because you love what you do. You saw your first concert when you were 8 years old and stuff was blowing up and, you know -- I saw Kiss at the Omni in Atlanta and it changed my life forever, made me want to do this, and then I realized I was good enough at it to make a living at it and I did. And then I got signed by a major label and realized that, you know, those aren't always, you know, possibilities when it comes to record sales.

I mean, let me start by saying at least one thing here. I represent 97 percent of the artists out there that get signed that don't go on to sell millions of records. I mean, I can probably look around this room right now and say that probably more than, you know, 75 percent of the people in this room probably don't know who the hell I even am, and that's...

PRESS: Well, here's one.

WALKER: OK, well, good. I paid you for that. No, I'm kidding.

The whole thing is, is, you know, that I represent a group like -- I think the statistics are like 3 percent of acts that get signed ever sell more than like 10,000 copies, I think, of a record.

Now, let me tell you one thing, the way record deals are structured by record labels -- and I'm not trying to dog on them, because they have a point and they have a premise, which is to get you out there and get you mass exposure, but they're taking most of the profits and until you sell like 10 million records like Metallica does, can you renegotiate your contract to make 40 and 50 percent.

PRESS: All right, but here's the question, if you're just starting out like you are and maybe haven't sold a million yet -- but you're going to someday, Butch, take it from me, you're going to, OK -- is this Napster technology and other files like that, do you think that will help you or hurt you make it big time?

WALKER: Well, that's what I was going to make a point is I think it's -- and Chuck, who I admire a lot -- by the way, Chuck -- is, you know, hitting on a good point that this is exposure for a lot of people and a lot of bands that may not get a chance to get a hit single on the radio and may not get a chance to, you know, have millions of dollars pumped into them by the record company because they got signed and for some reason whenever their record came out they realized that their time had passed and they moved on and shelved them and went on and put the money and the marketing behind another act.

And when somebody goes on to look up a band because they heard a song on the radio and they don't remember the name because the D.J. didn't say the name of the song and they can go pull it up on there and hear it, then I think it's an amazing thing to be able to get that kind of exposure, because you're going to be able to probably be enticed to go out and buy the record, not sit there and spend 20 hours downloading a whole CD of it, which most people don't have time to do anyway.

PRESS: Yes, all right, so, Howard King, this is going to help artists, not hurt artists, right? They're going to hear a single, then they're going to want to go out and buy the whole CD. What's wrong with that?

KING: Nothing. Let's distinguish between Napster and the Internet. In connection with our litigation, we did a survey at Napster: Well over 99 percent of the music downloaded from Napster is not for new -- not from new artists or emerging artists, it's big name artists. It's their copyrighted materials.

There are other sites on the Internet where artists voluntarily upload their MP3s for distribution and I say more power to them. I hope they get discovered that way. But it's up to the artist, not up to some investment bankers in San Mateo, to determine who is music gets distributed for free.

PRESS: All right, I have to admit -- Chuck, do I hear you want to jump in here?

CHUCK : Obviously, that's a lawyer attitude, because the music business is run by former lawyers who have received as high as eight figure salaries in the music industry, much more than the artists have ever seen, and they usually have the philosophy that, look, I'm going to look after you, when in the long run they only look after themselves. And in the case of Dre and Metallica, Metallica started from bootlegging -- having bootleg material and nodding their head in approval.

Dr. Dre started from the swap meet making mix tapes out in southern California only so they could build an audience and a fan base. And to actually to come out against the audience to me it sounds crazy, it doesn't sound like the rebellious spirit that I ever heard of. So to me it just sounds like a lawyer saying, hey, they're taking money from you guys, I'll go get them. Because I talked to Dre and, you know, Dre is like OK, whatever, you know, if it takes money from me, you know, maybe I'll look into, but pretty much he was like clueless.

PRESS: All right, that question is still -- Howard, I'm so sorry, I have to interrupt here. That question is still up in the air. If the CD costs 18 bucks, why is the artist only getting 2 bucks per CD. We'll get into that, continue our topic, and talk to some Napster users right here in the audience. I'm not one. We have some here for you.

TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: TALKBACK LIVE -- if you're sharing music with your friends, are you in fact stealing somebody else's property? That's our debate.

Let's introduce our guests again, Howard King joins us from Los Angeles, an attorney representing Metallica and Dr. Dre; Chuck D, lead rapper for Public Enemy is in our Washington studio; Butch Walker from The Marvelous 3 is right here in Atlanta with us. We are also joined from New York now by a representative of "Billboard Magazine" -- I'm sorry -- Marilyn Gillen. Marilyn, thank you for joining us.

MARILYN GILLEN, "BILLBOARD MAGAZINE": My pleasure.

PRESS: We'll come to you in just a second.

First, some of our studio audience here have been chomping at the bit. Some Napster users, I believe, right, Ira?

IRA: Yes. I think Napster is a great tool for us college students who are very short on funds and it's a great way to hear for new music by Dre and Public Enemy. It's just a great tool for us, I think.

PRESS: Nicole.

NICOLE: I'm a Napster user as well, and, yes, I download popular artists, but as well I also download new emerging independent artists that don't have the chance to be with large companies and get that, you know, publicity.

PRESS: Have you downloaded Butch Walker and The Marvelous Three yet? NICOLE: I will as soon as I get home.

PRESS: Go Butch, go Butch.

Chris, you have a couple other people there -- Mike.

CHRIS: Yes, Mike who is from South Carolina. Mike, go ahead.

MIKE: Well, I've noticed, and I probably fall into a large category of people -- Napster users -- I don't have a cable modem or I don't have a T3, I don't have these real fast modems, so when I get on to Napster, I notice that for me to download 10 songs it's going to take a long time, so I'd much rather to to the store and get a CD that has 10 songs, because for me to download 10 songs on Napster it's going -- it could take up as much as five hours, so I'd much rather go to the store and buy the CD.

PRESS: Butch.

WALKER: I agree with you, because I mean, that's the one thing I was pointing on a minute ago is that we had this big like resurgence when cassettes came along back in the day -- I don't know if -- I mean, I'm sure a lot of us remember that whenever like eight-tracks took over to cassettes and we were all going -- everybody had a cassette recorder and I sat around all day and recorded stuff off of the radio all day long, but it didn't mean that I didn't want to buy the record, because if I went to see that band play live and they kicked my butt and I liked every song, I wanted to have the record instead of, you know, taking the time and spending it, and it being a crappy not as good a CD recording, and I wanted the packaging, I wanted the artwork, I wanted all of that.

Now -- and I'm not saying that this doesn't hurt a little bit now, because digital music does sound better, but what I am saying is that whenever you take, you know, a band that has a song on there and you listen to it -- you were just saying most people have a 28 connection or a 56 or whatever, they're listening to it. It takes them all day to download, you know, more than a few songs and when you do that, you know, you can go out and buy the record instead.

PRESS: All right, so it's not -- Butch's point there, not going to kill the industry.

Marilyn Gillen, welcome to our discussion here. I'm sure you've been following the debate earlier. Let me ask you, Marilyn, from your perspective, you've seen this practice now for I guess a couple of years. How hard is the industry hurting?

GILLEN: Well, sales are up as a lot of people I'm sure have been pointing out so far. Although, there is a new...

PRESS: Sales are up, right, not down?

GILLEN: Sales are up in the industry, although I think Howard mentioned before there was a new study out today that notes that sales in college towns are actually down, which you could link to Napster. So right now, no, I don't think there is evidence that sales are being impacted right now. I think there's concern that going forward as this takes on that they might be.

PRESS: Well, I can remember -- this gray hair shows, I'm old enough to remember some things that when video cassettes came out, everybody said this is going to destroy movies, people wouldn't go to movie theaters anymore because they could rent videos. Guess what? Didn't happen, right?

GILLEN: Right.

PRESS: Is this -- is -- people now say that this new technology is going to destroy the recording industry. Do you believe it?

GILLEN: No, because, well, I think there's a point you're missing, that I think that the recording industry will segue online. So whether or not the industry moves online, the industry isn't going to go away.

You're already seeing the labels talking about Napster-like services. I don't know if they'd use that word, but they're talking about doing subscription services, basically meeting this demand that they see for younger consumers to get their music online and on- demand.

PRESS: And...

GILLEN: So no, I don't think the industry is going to go away.

PRESS: And as you look out over the next few years, Marilyn, if we're talking music today, is it going to stop there, or could we talk -- will we soon be talking about having -- will the next debate maybe be about downloading?

GILLEN: Oh yes.

PRESS: Downloading books? Is that where we're going?

GILLEN: Yes, you're already seeing that. You're already seeing that. And they're facing the same copyright issues I think that the music industry is facing right now, looking at how they can monetize what is happening.

Yes, no definitely, you're going to see that.

PRESS: I can see hands up in the audience, and Chuck D and Howard King I know want to respond to that. We'll give you a chance right after this break. But as we go to break, I want to read this fax here from Dave in New Jersey, raises a question I'd like to get our guest to respond to when we come back.

Dave says, "When I was a kid, I was told it was illegal to tape record a song off the radio. Is it not the same thing and is it illegal?"

We'll get to that question when we come back. TALKBACK LIVE: sharing or stealing the topic today.

Recording artists usually make less than $2 for every CD sold. The rest of the money is generally split between record labels and retailers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Sharing music on the Internet, sharing music from Napster: Is Napster the problem or was the music industry caught napping? I guess that's our debate right here on TALKBACK today. Our guests again: in studio, Butch Walker from the rock trio Marvelous 3; in Los -- in New York, rather, Marilyn Gillen joins us from "Billboard Magazine"; Chuck D in Washington, D.C.; Howard King in Los Angeles.

Attorney Howard King, let me start with -- I'd ask all of our guests to wait just a second while we hear from our real experts in the crowd here.

James, hi, James.

JAMES: Hi. Well, I actually have an unpopular opinion, and I guess it's because I'm going against Chuck D on my viewpoint here. But it seems to me that everyone is trying to compare this sort of activity with copying something off the radio, copying your friends tape, perhaps setting up a microphone at a concert. But I mean, if you've ever heard these things, there are as quality as a CD. There's no point in going out and buying a CD.

And so while all the -- I mean, some of the artists obviously are for this, it just -- you know, how are you going to make money and how are -- you know, are there going to be people that, you know -- how are you going to make money off this whatsoever if we let this happen? I don't know who is going to win this case, but it just seems like an important issue.

PRESS: What about that, Chuck?

CHUCK D: There will be ancillary areas that already exist for artists to actually hustle and make more money and be available to more money that's out there than ever before. It's just that you won't have the middle man's hand in as much as it's in there now determining what you should get as an artist.

As a matter of fact, retail and the industry have always been in cahoots together to make sure the artists actually get what they tell them what they're going to get and make sure the consumers pay what they tell the consumers what to pay.

So I think, you know, the old way just is eradicated. We're in a new millennium. This is a new technology. You can't stop it. Even if it's stopped in this country, it's still an international thing. Computers are all modemed together.

I look at it this way: If I'm actually playing in the outfield, and it rains, and the umpire says, play ball, I've got to figure out how to run on the wet grass. PRESS: OK. Howard King...

(APPLAUSE)

... let me ask you to respond to that. First, I want -- I'd like to get your answer to Dave's question that we went to the break. I mean, I don't think it is illegal to tape a song off the radio on a tape and play it in your car, right? And what's the difference between that and Napster?

KING: Right. That's not illegal, personal home use. I mean, first off, let me disabuse Chuck of the notion that radio is free. Radio pays huge fees that go to composers of songs for the right to broadcast their songs. Radio obviously makes money by selling advertising.

Home use, there are exceptions for home use. That is vastly different than the digital distribution through Napster, which can distribute millions of songs a day. It's different.

PRESS: Isn't the answer for Napster to go to a subscription basis and then everybody gets some share of it?

KING: Well, that may be, but the question is, where did Napster get the guts to go online with all this copyrighted music, basing their entire business plan on piracy without first going to the artists and the record labels and making precisely that suggestion? Someone's going to do it that way, but it won't be Napster.

PRESS: All right. I know Butch Walker and I know Chuck D want to respond to that. We'll give them a chance. Marilyn Gillen will be jumping back in as well as our audience when we come back. On TALKBACK LIVE: Sharing or stealing? -- music on the Internet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: TALKBACK LIVE: Napster has the recording industry rocking 'n' rolling. We asked all of you viewers a question: Is Napster sharing stealing? Here's the vote: 89 percent say sharing; 11 percent say stealing.

We are almost out of time.

Chuck D., you wanted to respond to Howard King's comment that radio is not free. We're going to give you the last word, Chuck. Take it away.

CHUCK D.: Well, in all respect to Mr. King, radio, retail and the record companies are in corporate cahoots together. There's a new type of payola going on, and that's what taking place now, squeezing the little man out, and we should just understand that the power is back in the hands of the people, and that's something for those guys to figure out.

PRESS: Well, I wish we had two hours, not just one hour to debate this. We are out of time. Butch Walker, thanks for being here. Marilyn Gillen, thanks for joining us. Howard King, thanks for being there. And Chuck D., thanks to you. Thanks to all of our studio audience. That's it for TALKBACK LIVE. I'm going to be back at 7:30 p.m. Eastern with Mary Matalin on "CROSSFIRE," and I'll be back again tomorrow for Bobbie Battista, 3::00 Eastern tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE, and of course 7:30 p.m. tonight for "CROSSFIRE."

Thank you everybody.